Bra FAQ #5 This is a file of oddments at the moment, the first item of which is some bra trivia reported on a mailing list I tend to lurk on. People keep asking me about this and I found my notes on it so thus begins this new FAQ on or about Bras. I have no idea if this is even true. ======================== Date: 04 Mar 95 00:40:42 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> To: Subject: Bras Message-ID: <950304054042_72437.674_FHG56-6@CompuServe.COM> Re The Invention of "Bras" From Janet Wilson Anderson Among the esoterica in my library is a little gem called "Bust-Up" by Wallace Reyburn, which is subtitled. "The Uplifting Tale of Otto Titzling and the Development of the Bra." This little book tells the details of Otto's work and company. Seems Otto Titzling (no kidding!) developed the bra in 1912 for Swanhilda Olafsen. Swanhilda was a singer of majestic proportions who lived in the same boarding house in New York as Otto, who worked in the garment business. Her need for a supporting garment was the inspiration for Otto's breakthrough design. Over the years, Otto's company developed the first "falsies", and padded bras, adapted a sports protector from 1929 into the inflatable bra, and developed a front-fastening bra, among others. (The latter failed, by the way!) In the early 30's a Frenchman Phillipe De Brassiere began producing undergarments blatantly based on Otto's designs. Being a much more fashionable gentleman who had been a dress designer before the Crash of 1929, he enjoyed considerable success. Otto sued. Mountains of documentation were presented during the four year court case. But alas, Otto had neglected to patent his original 1912 design, though he had patented all the modifications. It was a difficult case and although Titzling did receive some damages relating to certain details of manufacture, the court was ultimately unsympathetic, and Brassiere really won. During the trial both sides presented their designs on live models. Phillipe's model was stunning and got a lot of publicity, among which was a large blow-up of her in 'The Police Gazette' in a revealing pose under the headline "I did it all for the Bra". And the name entered the mainstream, appearing in the Dictionary of American Slang in 1938, the year the case ended. Sad to say, Otto's firm never recovered from the financial and emotional set-back. He died in the forties, still insisting that he was robbed. And that's why we wear "bras", not "titzlings"! JanetWA ( who loves this kind of trivia!) ========================= A partial listing of lingerie texts follows: This first one's more general about how the industry grades patterns, but I didn't note who had posted it: See Also: _Grading for the Fashion Industry, the Theory and Practice_ by Patrick Taylor and Martin Shoben. London: Hutchinson and Co, LTD. 1984. (from a reference in Threads issue #29). A complex and comprehensive text, from an apparel manufacturers viewpoint. Includes a survey of 34 body measurements (in metric) as well as two and three dimentional grading for missy bodices, skirts, sleeves and pants. Nor these: Singer Reference Library: _Sewing Lingerie_ covers both intimate apparel such as underwear and slips and sleepwear and loungewear such as robes and night clothes. The book has four sections. 1) Getting Started discusses patterns, fabrics, laces, elastic and threads. 2) Basic Sewing Techniques includes tips for pattern layout and cutting, a couple of treatments for seams, a couple of edge and hem treatments, and applying lace and elastic. 3) Intimate Apparel includes a few pages on slips, camisoles, panties, french bikinis, teddies, sports bras and leggings. 4) Loungewear and Sleepwear covers nightgowns, pajamas, boxer shorts, robes and kimonos. Fashion Design for the Plus Size This book is written for a student designer. It discusses some of the common figure types for larger women, some standard design tricks that can be flattering. The largest section discusses introductory drafting and draping techniques for making slopers and altering the slopers to make some complementary designs. The last section discusses grading for sizes 14-24. This book may be useful if you are doing alot of designing for larger women. Most of the topics and techniques are covered more thoroughly in other books, however this book concentrates on the problems most common in larger women. If you're not sure how useful it will be, check for it in a library before you buy it. Fashion Design for the Plus Size. Frances Leto Zangrillo. copyright 1990. Fairchild Publications. ISBN 87005-677-8. Available from Unicorn 4/92. ========================== Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:33:26 CDT To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com From: jmoguom@jcpenney.com Subject: Bra drafting Reply-To: jmoguom@jcpenney.com Mime-Version: 1.0 part text/plain 1834 Press to show content... Good morning Babs!! I found out about two books that has bra pattern drafting. The first one is: Pattern Drafting & Grading By Michael Rohr. 1968. 112 pages. "This is one of the few pattern books that will actually teach you how to draft and grade patterns if you follow the directions (what a novel idea!). It covers the drafting of brassieres, pants, shorts, tops, dresses, suits, coats, and leisurewear. It is not pretty with fancy graphics, and at times the information is poorly organized. If you plan to buy one pattern book in your career, get this one. Don't let the price fool you..." - The Designer's Network Newsletter. #BOOK-57...$22.35 The above can be obtained from: Southstar supply company 233 Oceola Avenue P.O. Box 90147 Nashville, Tennessee 37209 U.S.A. Order toll-free within the U.S., Canada, and 809 areas via: phone: 1-800-288-6739 fax: 1-800-842-7358 Or locally and from overseas via: phone: 615-353-7000 fax: 615-353-7155 Or order a free catalog or other information via E-mail: southstar@worldnet.att.net The second book is: "Pattern Cutting for Lingerie, Beachwear and Leisurewear" by Ann Haggar Available from Blackwell Science Inc 238 Main Street CAMBRIDGE MA 02142 Orders (tel 800 251-1000) 617 876-7000 fax 617 492-5263 I haven't used this book yet but there are drafting instructions for Basic Bra, seamless bra (soft cup), 1/2 cup underwired, full cup underwire. Also instructions to make corset(merry widow type) & waspie. This decription is by a member of a sewing list I belong to. I Have not had the chance to purchase the books yet. I just thought you would want to know about these leads as soon as possible. If you do get the books, please let me know what you think of them. Happy sewing! Justine ============================ A note: I got the Rohr text in October, 1996, some months ago but have not had time to use it. It arrived in a timely fashion, and the person who took my order was very nice. Pages 36-39 are perhaps the most interesting. Pages 38 and 39 deal most directly with drafting of bras in particular, but the other sections teach how to draft the bodice on which the drafting for the bras are based. The book covers the drafting of many other garments as well as that of bras. [-Babs] ============================ From: luana@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Luana Lisandro) Organization: The University of Western Australia Date: 28 Jan 1995 00:52:36 GMT Subject: Re: Make Bras at Home? Luana Lisandro (luana@yarrow.wt.uwa.edu.au) wrote: : There is a wonderful pattern making book on Leisure Wear and Swim : Wear, it has an entire section on bra patterns and how to measure the : bust... Will post up the bibliography soon... the above suggestion : is an excellent one... Here is the bibliography details: Haggar, Ann. 1990 _Pattern Cutting for Lingerie, Beachwear and Leisurewear_ Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications. Have fun!! Luana -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Luana Lisandro ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ University of Western Australia | "There is no system that has not email: luana@tartarus.uwa.edu.au| another system concealed within it." | "Art & Lies" by Jeanette Winterson ========================== From: mcoffin@math.clemson.edu (Marie Coffin) Organization: Department of Mathematical Sciences, Clemson University Date: 30 Jan 1995 22:53:52 GMT Subject: Re: Make Bras at Home? [...............About above book: ] I don't remember seeing a review of this book on here, so I'm going to post some comments. First of all, this is a great book. I love it. It contains very detailed instructions for making a sloper to your personal dimensions, and then for using the sloper to make lingerie, sleepwear and beachwear patterns. There are directions for bras, panties, teddies, corsets, nightgowns, pajamas, robes, swim suits, beach cover-ups, leotards and sweatsuits. The directions are specific enough that you can achieve the look given in the drawing, but there are also lots of suggestions for variations and things to try on your own. Most of the styles given look cute and comfortable to me, but some of them are just plain odd. Keep in mind that the author is in England. I don't know anyone this side of the Atlantic who wears panties like that. Secondly, I wouldn't recommend this for the novice. The book does not contain actual patterns that you can trace and use, and it does not have any directions for how to make up the patterns once you have drafted them. The emphasis is on drawing the patterns, and the reader is expected to know enough to put the garment together. The author does give some suggestions for appropriate materials and layouts. In the back is a listing of places to order the hard-to-find things. These places are all in England, so ordering underwires from them might be unnecessarily complicated for many of us. A final cautionary note: I ordered the book from the publisher (Blackwell Scientific) and compared to other sewing books I've bought, it was quite expensive. I don't remember the exact price, but I believe it was almost $40 in paperback. In summary: I think an experienced sewer would find this a valuable addition to the library. I also think a beginner/intermediate sewer would be disappointed. Marie Coffin From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@bangate.pge.com To: h-costume@xxxxxxx Subject: More on underwear .................. _Bras: A Private View_, _Knickers: An Intimate Appraisal_, and _Stockings: A Quick Flash_ by Rosemary Hawthorne (Souvenir Press, London, 1992 and 1993 Hawthorne is a veteran garment collector who cites the right sources (Cunnington, Arnold, etc.) and adds illustrations from her own collection. Her writing style is a bit breezy but amusing. I also enjoy her very English perspective. Hawthorne says the bra as we know it was invented in 1913, by socialite Mary Phelps Jacobs, with two handkerchiefs, pink baby ribbon, and the help of her French maid. There were earlier "brassieres" in the late 1800s, but they are more like boned camisoles, including the "bust improver" with the ruffles facing inwards that my grandmother described wearing. .................. Danine Cozzens From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:06:21 -0500 To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts There is pictorial evidence that bras were worn in some parts of Europe as early as the 4th century, A.D. Much later, in the early 1800's, some so-called corsets also looked much like bars. However, it was not until about 1907, when boned under-bodices became popular, that the term "brassiere" began to be used. Still, it was not until 1913 that an American woman named Mary P. Jacobs created what we would today recognize as a bra. Looking much the same as the bras worn in the 4th century, AD, this creation was free of boning, ended just below the bosom, and separated the breasts. This modern bra had humble beginnings. Made of two handkerchiefs and a string of ribbon, it was first made only by Ms. Jacobs herself and given to a few select friends. She obtained a patent for the bra in 1914, and a few years later, many women adopted the style. In the 1920's, when chest-flattening became important, strips of fabric with thin shoulder straps adopted the name "brassiere", also, but it was in the 1930's that the brassiere began to look like the ones used today--and it was then that the term "bra" was coined. As far as your wondering why women choose to wear corsets today, they are exercising a CHOICE based upon enjoyment. You may be amused, but they take it quite seriously. Thomas B..Lierse ========================= On Making Swimsuits...... I haven't yet had the supplies to try this out, but it seems promising. In my notes to myself, I have written the following, and if anyone has additional thoughts or information on this I ask that you forward it to me. I'm stuck with such an odd size that making my own swimsuits seems the only solution, but I've been stymied as to how to get the necessary support in a swimsuit. "A note on swimsuits: I've begun seeing in catalogues mention of the softcup swim cups in some suits. I've done a small bit of at least preliminary research and apparently they are sized, but I think by chest (see the Underwire FAQ on cups size assumptions and sizing up). Some even use those cups, which are certainly not unheard of or uncommon in RTW suits, but *also* some use underwires in addition. This sounds like what I need to try to build. The inner bra would be made with both and then installed like usual inside the suit. Then if it does the trick I could change out of a sandy, gritty, clammy-cold suit when I go swimming and get into my dry day clothes again and warm up! This also widens the possible swim suit styles eventually available for me. If this works, it goes into one of the FAQs for sure!" In addition: Ann Person, the Founding President of Stretch&Sew, Inc., writes, in her book Sew Splashy, p.10 (reprinted without permission): "Bra Cups The addition of bra cups to a suit can define the bustline and give some support. Generally, cup size A is 32-34 (81-87cm), B is 34-36 (87-92cm), C is 36-38 (92-97cm), and D is 38-40 (97-102cm). The choice of bra cups and whether or not to use them is a personal one." On p. 48, mostly on p. 50, Person elaborates on installing cups into (in this case) a "Bandeau With Bra Cups This basic suit offers more support when using cups in the bandeau." [This is a basic tank top with variations, into which is attached a bandeau bra using the bra cup lining pattern pieces. For a full lining, add the bottom pattern for the suit from the bandeau edge down. Add the cups, sew the bottom half of the suit lining to the bandeau bottom edge, and I would add an elastic casing here, which they don't. I would also make the back the same way, and basically make a full suit from the lining with the added cups and maybe underwire, and then baste it right side to suit wrong side and continue with this as one piece for the rest of construction. It's a little awkward to handle but it should come together pretty logically. If you can make the back closure adjustable, go ahead.] p. 50: "2. Place right side of bra cups on wrong side of bra cup lining, placing the high point of the cup directly over the high point mark on Bra Cup Lining. Bra cups need to be at least 3/4inch (1.9cm) away from neck edge and slightly apart at center front. 3. Pin bra cups in place, Hold bra cups against body and adjust seperation if necessary. " They instruct to zigzag the cups in place around the edges. Their tip in installing the cups is: "When pinning bra cups to Bra Cup Lining, do not flatten cups out; keep them in the same shape as if they were on your body. Bra Cup Lining should lay flat and smooth under the cups. Do NOT pull or try to stretch Bra Cup Lining OVER cups." They instruct attaching the elastic across the bottom edge, and then to baste this bra front to the front section of the suit itself, bandeau right side to suit front wrong side. As you finish the suit itself this is treated as one unit. If you added underwire to this, it would have to go in before the elastic was folded down and stitched in place (see my FAQ on bra construction, Bra FAQ #2), or before any stitching across the underwire channelling such that both ends of it would be closed. I would recommend finishing off the neckline first and then adding the wires before the underarm-to-strap elastic installation is finished. A note about those of us with larger and heavier busts: I would recommend also constructing a back for this with straps to match the suit straps and to line them and add support, and then installing this after the suit front and back have been sewn at the shoulders. This would then be free- moving and well-fitted and could be tacked to the side seams so there's less stress on them from only a bandeau front and better support and stability (less jiggle) as a result. Also less chance of falling out inside the suit. One style this almost necessitates is a keyhole back closure, or it might allow the suit to be cut a little lower if there's enough support in a lower design using a full bandeau inside the suit. Line straps for added support and less dig, if need be and use a possibly wider elastic for armhole and neckline openings up through the straps. This is all especially useful for out of the water and to provide more assurance that they'll stay inside your suit when you swim or float and less bounce walking onshore. The point is to make a well-fitted bra to wear inside the suit with adequate support. I doubt the spaghetti strap suit designs in this book are recommended for this kind of support need, though. A note about bikini tops with swim cups: the same logic holds for these, but the designs are probably more limited due to the architecture and structural concerns of all bras for larger sizes. A bikini top would necessarily most resemble the bandeau design above, with underwire probably. Here, you may be able to work better with boning in the sides and a V-wire, U-wire, or even a large enough W-wire, plus good boning in the cups in order in either case to use narrower straps, or convertable straps (or none). This is a major engineering headache in larger cups sizes, however. Sew Splashy, by Ann Person (C) 1990, 1993 by Stretch&Sew, Inc. (No ISBN listed) Available at retail stores and through Stretch&Sew: Stretch & Sew, Inc. * Patterns, books, notions. 1165 Valley River Drive Some fabrics and videos, too. Eugene, Oregon, 97401 Catalogue: free ================================================ Notes on alteration of cup size It is most advisable to first copy the pattern pieces out and not use the original to alter your pattern. The below book has a master pattern and the pattern pieces are copied out (I prefer to use coated freezer paper and some different colored sharpie permanent markers for this), and the copies only are altered. Please don't alter the originals, at some point you will need them in the original form and if you haven't used copies you'll be stuck. This is copied without permission from Kwik Sew's Swim & Action Wear book, by Kerstin Martensson. I felt it was such a good and concise description that it was important to include the text at least. I'm assuming that readers either know or can look up the "slash and spread method" of pattern alteration. This is a good book, by the way, I got mine through Keiffer's Lingerie Supply, who carry a lot of Kwik Sew patterns that can be ordered from them from the Kwik Sew catalogue by mail order along with a lot of swim suit and lingerie supplies. Martensson writes: "If your bust size is larger than a C-cup, more length and width is needed on the front. Adjust the front pattern as follows: If making a one piece swimsuit or a leotard, draw a line, perpendicular to the center front halfway between the notch and the underarm [on the pattern]. Spread the pattern apart 1/2" (1.3cm) for each cup size; for a D-cup spread the pattern apart 1/2" (1.3Cm), for a DD-cup spread the pattern apart 1" (2.5Cm) etc. Now, draw a line from this line to the armhole [...]. Cut on this line to the armhole and spread apart 1/2" (1.3) for each cup size. Draw a smooth line at the side seam. This adjustment will allow more gathers at the side seam over the bust." Martensson's example Princess Line suit is the armhole type: "To adjust the princess line swimsuit, lengthen the front, using the same procedures. To lengthen the side panel cut the pattern from the princess line seam, stopping 1/4" (6mm) from the side seam. Spread the pattern piece apart the same amount as on the front. Add 1/2" (1.3cm) for each cup size to the side seam, tapering the line to the waist and the armhole." What I found useful was applying these instructions to the cups of the bikini pattern included in the master pattern, the instructions for making which are on pages 37-40 of the book. Since this is a bra, this then is how to alter a bra. This was an epiphany for me, since I have such an impossible-to-fit size. The larger the cup size, the more places you have to slash. Slash the cup pattern piece from the cup seam to a 1/4" from either the top of the upper cup, or the frame (band) seam of the cup. Don't cut the pattern piece completely apart, because you're trying to preserve the shape and dimensions of the cup where it will be sewn into the frame or band. Pivot and slide by pinning down one side of the slash and opening it up to the 1/2" per cup size. Going from C to F [scream] meant a difference of 1-1/2". This means I have to use two slashes, one on each side of the cup pieces (one on left, the other on right of center) and cut them on a roughly 30 degree angle or something (I didn't use a protractor, but don't employ a severe angle for this). This is like dividing up bustline dart control. If you use more than one slash, divide the amount you need to adjust by by the number of slashes you use. (It occurs to me I probably could get away with using only one slash, but I think the result might be too pointy a cup shape, as it might end up being harder to correct the curve along the cup seams. I'll have to try that out.) Also, find a center point between the two split sides on the pattern piece and divide it evenly on either side of the cut slash line for more evenness in the result. It is important to do this to *both* cup pieces, upper and lower, to distribute the size change evenly between them. Seperate along the slashes whatever the adjustment number divides to. Line the slash marks up with regards to each other between the upper and lower cup pieces. Draw a straight line ending 1/4" on each from the cup seam and cut the pattern to there. Follow above directions. Redraw the cup and add the corrected seam curve on both cup pieces, with reference to the original curve. This same method should work for reduction, in reverse. (I guess that could be called "slash and compress".) I am investigating where to get the swimsuit cups my size requires to line any bra-part to a swimsuit (bikini or tank, you need to form at least an inside support system of some degree). I know Stretch&Sew has recently begun to sell them, apparently they had stopped and are now offering them again on a trial basis, so I'm going to order some. They have them (as of June, 1996) in their current catalogue with or without underwires already attached. ================================================ See Bra FAQ #2 for instructions on putting the bra together (this applies to bathing suit bras as well as halters of some kinds and bikini tops). ================================================ Sources for patterns and supplies ============================ From _Threads_, Nov. 1995 Classified Ads: "Hard To Find" Lingerie and Swimsuit items. Retail or Wholesale Catalogues -- $3.00 each. Fabric samples $2.00. The BEST DISCOUNT PRICES are at LACELAND P.O. Box 1504 Sugarland, TX 77487-1505 (713) 983-LACE.S "Ultimate in Activewear fabrics!!! Largest selection of cotton and nylon, lycra, stretch velvet, glissenettes, supplex, etc. Swatch club membership. $12.75/yr. LGF 3521 Fairview Industrial Drive S.E. Salem, Oregon 97303 1-800-LGF-9060" ============================= From: jhardie@wwnet.com (Mike and Joy Hardie) To: babs@funhouse.com (Babs Woods) Subject: Re: swimsuits and support issues Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:46:19 GMT LGF Fabrics 1-800-LGF-9060 has the soft swim bra cups and the underwires...they can also give directions. I just got mine and will try it later this week. A great thick fabric makes a very professional suit. JH ============================= From: Ch5953@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:37:40 -0400 To: babs@funhouse.com Subject: Re: swimsuits and support issues Babs...great note!!!! I can't say I'm hard to fit exactly, but I am very interested in making my own suits since I bought a house with a pool I have to use every day for workouts/exercises. Swimsuits are the most most expensive item made for what little bit of fabric used!!! I have tried on the RTW suits with soft cups and the underwires. What I liked the best was the underwire with padded cups since it eliminates many problems. What I hated was the suits with tummy control panels...all they did was push the flab/fat above my waist which made me look even worse than the ones without any control. I hope you get lots of input and will be looking here for more information! Carolyn ============================= This is what I have so far. Again, I welcome people's additions and comments. Email me at: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com, or babs@funhouse.com Happy sewing! -babs woods (If all else fails: Babs Woods 958 Mass. Ave. Boxboro, MA 01719 )