Bra FAQ #1: Bra Fit & Fashion This is the long-awaited alt.sewing Bra FAQ, now seperated from the Underwire FAQ, and into several sections itself, due to their increasing sizes. In some of them you will find addresses for bra patterns I have so far found with mention of mail order places that carry supplies, with as much detail as people could muster. (There has been much discussion on alt.sewing about whether or not people like underwires, see a use for them, need them; so since I need them, I've taken a keen interest in what's what with underwires. Call me selfish. I have tried to confine that mostly to the Underwire FAQ, which see.) There are now five files in all: Underwire FAQ: Wherein the author has completely nerded out on underwires. Contains some mail order lingerie supplies addresses. See Bra FAQ #3 for more. Bra FAQ #1: Bra Fit & Fashion Contains a discussion on people's complaints about bras and how to measure for proper fit, and other things in those areas. Bra FAQ #2: Bra making Tutorial Will cover what I have learned about how to design and sew a bra, with contributions from the net. Bra FAQ #3: Places to look for lingerie & lingerie supplies Will cover further the issues of finding the supplies for sewing lingerie, including mailorder bra patterns, lingerie supplies, and mailorder bra sources. It includes some addresses for swimwear, as well. (One so far.) Bra FAQ #4: Bra Fabric & Anatomy Some discussion on specifications for bra fabric like the RTW ones are made from, and some pointers to finding it (referring you back to Bra FAQ 2). There is also a stretch chart that people can make up themselves to check the stretch of fabric and elastics and a discussion in one section on not only lingerie fabric descriptions, but on my approximations of bra anatomy. I welcome anyone's comments and additions, but I don't have the facilities to maintain this as an automatic posting (I *might* be able to set this up). I hope people will find _and_make_ these a useful set of files. Babs Woods babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com, or babs@funhouse.com ========================== Bra FAQ#1: Bra Fit & Fashion Contains a discussion on people's complaints about bras and how to measure for proper fit, and other things in those areas. ========================== What makes a properly fitting bra? ========================== From: erica@solo (Erica Duddy) Subject: Re: Bra size : Here are a couple of rules; measure under the bust (ribcage) This is : your size. Then measure at largest point of bust. This is your guide to : cup size. 2" over rib measurement is for Bcup. After that every 2" : is up a cup size. ======================= For me, the formula seems to work out to this: Ribcage + 2-1/2Ó == Frame Size Bustline Measurement - Frame Size == Cup Size Frame Size + Cup Size == Bra size This is not the same as taking the high chest alone and the bust and getting bra size, nor is it the same as getting it from ribs and bust. Someone somewhere else had said use 3" instead of 5" or 6" for bigger busts. Maybe it's 3" for smaller chestband + larger bust? According to the Just My Size catalogue: Measure ribcage, add 5". If it's an odd number, add 1" to round it off to an even number (43 becomes 44). For cup size, they say to measure the bustline (at bust point level, and one assumes with a good-fitting bra on). If your bust is 2" bigger than your chest it's a B-cup, and so on. This algorithm is the reverse of the one for Fredrick's, above. JMS is part of the Hanes, Bali, Playtex group of products, also; having the same address as the outlet catalogue. In my early teens in the 70s I vaguely recall being taught to use the high chest+bust measurement to get the bra size, but they never fit properly. High chest was used for the band circumference size. This is likely one reason they never fit. Also, for a sewer and a designer like me, it seems the better way to measure it out for designing as well as fitting RTW is to measure the high chest and bust and subtract some standard number from the high chest for the chestband. I worked this out backwards from what fits me (YMMV) and the dimensions in the charts. If I use high chest to get chestband, I now think I'd end up subtracting 4-1/2" to get my real chest measurement (31-1/2") and be able to both design the right size chestband and to aid in fitting RTW off the rack. 31-1/2 + 2-1/2 == 34, which is what I look for in the chestband. The difference between ribcage and high bust gives the cup size, which is then added to the frame size (34 in my case), to get an at least approximate bra size to look for or make. The bra cup comparison chart(s) [see elsewhere] show the variability within a given cup size as to dimensions between makers. If you plan to make your own bras, you may find the following, as I found. According to the above Frederick's of Hollywood catalogue bra size chart, I'd need: Chestband: 30+6=36 Bustline: 40-36=4 Cup size: 4=D This makes for a 36D, the underwire to which is 34DD also. (See Diane's comments under Sew Sassy Lingerie, below). My chest circumference seems to really be a size 32, but the cup size is the 34DD wire because one side is 1" to 1-1/4" bigger (a size). So the result is to wear a 32F, effectively, as far as I can see (depressing) by making a size 32 chestband and using the 34DD wire. *Gack*. What it really means is that the smaller frame means the next cup size up. The 34DD I thought I could still wear is now a 34DDD/F ( :-( ). You can't buy that off the rack, I've tried. [- babs] =============================== [I posted the request that I wanted to compare across catalogues and anything else people might have for measuring for the right size bra. This is the response:] [-- babs] From: Helene Andersson Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 23:33:06 -0400 To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com In-Reply-To: <35f47h$cvq@jfwhome.funhouse.com> Subject: Re: bra sizing charts request OK... I have lots of catalogues, and I can see if they have sizing info in them. I know Frederick's of Hollywood and Lane Bryant do, I'll check them for you... Frederick's of Hollywood: Wearing a well-fitting, unpadded bra, measure under bust. If an odd number, add 5", if an even number, add 6". This is your FRAME SIZE. Measure across fullest part of bust. Subtract your frame size from this measurement, and calculate cup size. Cup sizes go by 1" increments, starting at 1"=A cup to 7"=FF cup. Lane Bryant: Measure Chest, under arms and above bust, and Bust, around fullest part of bust, while wearing a well-fitting bra. Cup sizes go by 1" increments, starting at 1.5-2.5=B cup to 9.5-10.5=II cup. They also clarify cup sizes, stating that DD=E, DDD=F, FF=G, and H=HH, with GG between FF and HH. I also have a Decent Exposures catalogue, and their sizing (which they admit is different than most) goes like this: [Decent Exposures:] Measure rib cage under breasts; round up to even numbers for bra size. Measure fullest part of bust, with a bra on. The cup size chart is like this: 0-1"=A cup; 1-2"=B; 2-3"=C, 3-5"=D, 5-7"=E, 7-8.5"=F, 8.5-10"=G, 10-11.5"=H, 11.5-13"=I, 13-15.5"=J, and 15.5-17"=K. For their velour bra, up the cup size by one. Using the various methods, I get these sizes: FoH: 37+5=42, 48-42=6 : 42F L.B: 38, 48-38=10 : 38II D.E: 37+1=38, 48-38=10 : 38G or 38H (38H or 38I for velour) They're not terribly consistent... I usually wear a 38DD, but if I can find them, 36F's seem to fit well. I also have bras in 36D, 36DD, 38D, and 40DD that fit OK. I guess it matters a lot by style and fabric. Helene -- This message may or may not have any relevance to anything important to you. Helene Andersson lelle@wpi.edu helene@hotblack.gweep.net From: Helene Andersson Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 23:37:12 -0400 To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Subject: Re: bra sizing charts request In-Reply-To: <35f47h$cvq@jfwhome.funhouse.com> ...I forgot to mention that in Sweden (which is the only country in Europe where I've bought bras), I was fitted professionally (several years ago admittedly), and I was told to get an 85DD, which is the same as 34DD. Now I'd probably take a 90DD or even 95DD (the sizes correspond reasonably well inches-wise, I think. It's been years since I had a European bra). Helene From: lelle@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Helene) Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Date: 25 Aug 1994 15:22:25 GMT Subject: Re: Bra sizes The formula I use for finding an approximate bra size is to measure the bust and =above= the bustline, just under the arms. The difference dictates cup size, by 2's: 1-2"=A, 3-4=B etc. Works for me, my high bust measurement is 38", my bust 48", and I generally wear a 38DD. Someone told me once, though, that it only works for larger cup sizes, but I don't know. The usual formula would put me out of range (under bust is probably 35" or so, so say 40... 8" more makes me a what, GG or H or something...). Helene -- This message may or may not have any relevance to anything important to you. Helene Andersson lelle@wpi.edu helene@hotblack.gweep.net =========================== From the Intimate Appeal catalogue (presented by Arizona Mail Order Co., Inc.): Measure wearing your best-fitting bra. [Measure high chest, as in Lane Bryant, above. Subtract the high chest measurement from the bustline for cup size. A=1", B=2", C=3", D=4", DD/E=5", DDD/F=6", FF/G=7".] If in between cup sizes, order next larger cup size [fit for larger side]. If chest measurement is [odd] (i.e. 35), round up to the next larger size (36). Note that they carry the following brands: Body Sleeks, Vanity Fair, Glamorise, Glamorise Special Request, goddess, Bali, Warner's, Lilyette, Playtex (18 hour, Cross-Your-Heart), Jodee, Exquisite Form. =========================== From: coeli@aol.com (Coeli) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Date: 1 Jul 1994 07:30:03 -0400 Subject: Bra size For years I bought a 44 D bra for obvious reasons. Lately I have been buying a 38 E. MOst of us are not guided well in buying well. Here are a couple of rules; measure under the bust (ribcage) This is your size. Then measure at largest point of bust. This your guide to cup size. 2" over rib measurement is for Bcup. After that every 2" is up a cup size. Now I wear a Minimizer by Lysette and things look better and I don't look as if I am following my bust into the room. Patterns are cut for Bcup. Buy patterns for your ribcage plus 2" and alter. In fact we are taught to buy them by the high bust measurement, between the knobs of the shoulder bones. Mimi [Note: the above chart would scale the 44D down to either the 38F, or 38E, but lists the progression as (A,) B C D DD F FF. No E, G, or H as I've seen on RTW, mostly in catalogues. Also, check the Frederick's chart for cup sizing, too. Is there some measure of vanity sizing in the bra industry?) --babs] ============ From: erica@solo (Erica Duddy) Organization: Inter-National Research Institute Date: 6 Jul 1994 01:00:41 GMT Subject: Re: Bra size Coeli (coeli@aol.com) wrote: : buying a 38 E. MOst of us are not guided well in buying well. Here : are a couple of rules; measure under the bust (ribcage) This is your : size. Then measure at largest point of bust. This your guide to cup : size. 2" over rib measurement is for Bcup. After that every 2" is up : a cup size. [ stuff deleted ] I remember reading somewhere (here?) that this rule about cup sizes is different in Europe. Does anyone know for sure? ================================================ Bra Cup Size Comparison Charts Most of us have been told that the cup sizes move up or down by 2" increments, but in the smallest sizes to the medium-large sizes only (AAA-AA: 0.5"-1"; AA-DD/E, even DDD/F by 1") they do. Once you get much beyond DD/E, it seems they increment by either 1" or 1.5", according to the listings I've so far seen (as noted below in the DE listing, between C-D-DD/E it's a 2" increment between each size). Be aware of such sizing, and also note that not all makers a) show all their sizes in a given catalogue or on the floor (although usually, if you see no mention of your size or none on the floor or in the ad, they aren't carrying your size nohow), b) may not even make a 34F (I know from oft- repeated experience). This is intended as a guide to cup sizes only, not necessarily to the availability of your specific overall bra size. (I wish it were.) I hope this is less cumbersome and more readable than the last draft was. If anyone comes across more charts, please pass them on to me and I can add them to this section. For an extremely good article on bras, especially for smaller- busted women interested in the push-up styles, take a look at the March, 1995 issue of SELF Magazine, The Quest for The Perfect Bra, by Dana Thomas. There are contributions by Lorie Parch (Glossary, some mailorder bra addresses (see elsewhere)), which are also good. They also include addresses to give them feedback on the article in the form of a poll ("If you could find a bra that was completely comfortable, very attractive and that fit perfectly, how much would you be willing to pay for it?"): Phone: 212-880-5555 FAX: 800-228-7353 email: Poll@SELF.com or their address: SELF; 20th floor, 350 Madison Ave.; NYC, NY, 10017. The results are supposedly to appear in the June issue. Maybe someone else will post those and I'll include them here. -babs ============ List of abbreviations: Decent Exposures: DE; Frederick's of Hollywood: FoH; JCPenney: JCP; Lane Bryant: LB; Bali/Playtex/Champion Jobgra/Hanes Her Way: Bali (they're all from the outlet catalogue listing); Playtex Thank Goodness It Fits Bras: PTGIF (outlet catalogue listing), Just My Size: JMS, Lady Grace: LG Inches of projection Brand Name FoH, JCP, Bali, LG, JMS (Note:__JMS doesn't offer an A-cup__): (0.5" NA: PTGIF) 1" A (PTGIF: PA) (1.5"-2.5" B: LB) 2" B (PTGIF: NB; JMS: B) (2.5"-3.5" C: LB) 3" C (JMS: C) (3.5"-4.5" D: LB) 4" D (JMS: D) (4.5"-5.5" DD/E: LB) 5" DD/E (JMS: DD/E) 6" DDD/F (JMS: DDD/F) (6.5"-7.5" DDD/F: LB) Further, LG & FoH: 7" FF/G (7.5"-8.5" GG/H: LB) Note also that LG has these cup sizes: 8" G (8.5"-9.5" HH/I: LB) 9" GG/H (9.5"-10.5" II/J: LB) Decent Exposures: 0-1" A 1"-2" B 2"-3" C (the sizes then move to 2"difference:) 3"-5" D 5"-7" DD/E (then to 1.5" difference:) 7"-8.5" F 8.5"-10" FF/G 10"-11.5" GG/H 11.5" -13" HH/I 15.5" -17" JJ/K Contributers: Babs Woods: babs@funhouse.com; babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Helene Andersson: lelle@wpi.edu; helene@hotblack.gweep.net Mimi ___________: coeli@aol.com (Coeli) ========================= From: faera Organization: Victoria University of Wellington Date: 26 Aug 1994 02:12:22 GMT Subject: Re: Bra sizes Subject: Bra sizes From: Beth Picknally Camden, bp2f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 13:09:00 GMT In article Beth Picknally Camden, bp2f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU writes: > >I remember reading at some time in the past a simple formula for >estimating a bra size. It involved taking both the breast measurement >and the measurement of the chest wall immediately below and >comparing. Does anyone know this formula? (I've gained some weight, >and I'd like a better idea of my size before I go bra shopping) > >-- > -Beth (bp2f@virginia.edu) > >"First things first, but not necessarily in that order" - Dr. Who Actually lingerie salesladies in the smaller stores are really helpful about this. I have had the experience on more than one occasion of being personally fitted into a bra - and having my breasts commended in the process. I think this is part of the sales pitch. After the first time, I was a bit more relaxed about the rather customary woman handling that was involved. I recommend the experience to everyone at least once in a lifetime. It's unforgettable and worth the extra cost of the personalised service. The surprising thing to me, was that in both cases I was told that a bra should fit very firmly - and I practically couldn't breathe - eg expand my rib cage as a result. Today I use some discretion in this matter. Apparently one rule of good fit is that there shouldn't be any bulge of the breasts above the cups. If you pull your shoulders back you shouldn't see any nice little rolls above the bra. This is a sign that the cup size is too small. The bras that are a real problem are the ones cut so low in the cups that when you lean over the breast actually falls out. This feels really strange when it happens and is a bit socially inconvenient. Hope this helps. regards, faera faera@kauri.vuw.ac.nz =============== From: faera Organization: Victoria University of Wellington Date: 12 Sep 1994 21:39:55 GMT Subject: Re: Bra sizes >It's all going to come back to you in the FAQ, >actually. I thought this was a great post, I'd just like you to >fill in everything you were told for a fuller accounting of how >professionals say bras should fit. It sounds again a lot like the >notion that the bra designers don't know how they fit but the people >on the floor fitting them and the customer wearing them do. > > -babs > >-- > >"Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair." > - hadley@ics.uci.edu (Ted Hadley) Dear babs, et al: I think this was a great post as well, and I have gotten a lot of laughs out of reading about what is an exclusively feminine topic, that is rarely if ever talked about. Unfortunately, I was offline for 2-3 days due to the mainframe computer being upgraded over a weekend and into Monday morning, so I missed some postings immediately after I wrote my `fall-out' post. someone e-mailed something to me directly at that time which I post back. I think this has something to say on the subject of `Fall Out' *********************************************************************** Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 19:47:21 +0200 From: To: faera Subject: Re: Bra sizes Although if you fall out in a really good restaurant the waiters should put you back in. Sometimes this is not the result of the cups being low cut, but rather the way they support the breast and the consistency of the particular breasts. Look at the difference across manufacturers lines in how the parts of the cup are seamed and the distribution of force than results from the change in elasticity of the parts of the cup. In addition to not sticking out the top, you should also not be bulging out above the band on the side either. This is another sign of too small a cup size. Chip *********************************************************************** To be honest, I think I may have sensationalised my `fall out' comments - just a `tad'. I have only really experienced this in a halter type bra that fastens in the front and is made of a cotton interlock fabric. It's chief promotional feature is supposed to be its comfort. It is comfortable but does not support or shape the breast at all. I tend to wear it when I am doing house cleaning and then I am doing a lot of bending and stooping over. The real inconvience is having to wash my hands from whatever grub they've gotten into to `adjust' myself or otherwise to walk around the place `mal-adjusted'. Since I despise house cleaning - I am allergic to dust and have a physical reaction that results in my getting enraged and yelling at everyone in sight - it's not a happy situation to begin with. The happy solution is that I don't wear the bra often, and I don't house clean often. So don't come to visit without giving two weeks notice. I would be happy to see it all in the FAQ, and or on Saturday Night Live - or the nearest equivalent. regards: faera. ============================ From: llf@summit.novell.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 16:01 EDT To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Subject: Re: Bra sizes Newsgroups: alt.sewing In-Reply-To: <34o298$j8s@jfwhome.funhouse.com> References: Organization: Novell, Summit In article <34o298$j8s@jfwhome.funhouse.com> you write: >In <33jj26$mt8@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz> faera >writes: >>The surprising thing to me, was that in both cases I was told that a >>bra should fit very firmly - and I practically couldn't breathe - eg > >How firmly, other than not being able to breathe, is the standard? >If that's firm, what's the opposite described as? The opposite is "loose". (Make sense to you? Doesn't to me!) I find that, properly fitted, it's somewhat difficult to slide the bra around the body (for example, if you put it on backward to see the hooks in the back, it should be uncomfortable to slide the front around). It leaves impression lines around me by then end of the day, and when it's new, it is sometimes tight enough to be somewhat too tight. I just let some sales critter talk me into a really nice size 36 D bra rather than my normal 34 DD. Sigh. It's a REALLY NICE BRA. And the cups are Almost Big Enough. But damn it, 34 is really the right size. The 36 tends to inch upwards in the back, letting the front droop, so that I have to reach behind me and pull the whole thing down my back from time to time. Not to mention the additional stress on my lower back which I DO NOT need. :-) ( I really should copy this one and modify it to fit...besides it's cut high, which means I can't wear it with 1/2 my summer clothes.) So, in some senses, firmly means that you can't pull it further up your body than it's supposed to go. If you weren't making your own, you could try on ones to either side of your size (e.g. I would try on 34DD, 36D, 32DDD ... and also 36DD in the same bra) since each bra is cut differently. Lynda ============================== [I had asked Sue in email, before posting this to the group, if she had any catalogue or other fitting charts for bras, plus the directions for measuring for good fit. I felt she made some good points below. --babs] Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:14:59 -0600 From: sastoen@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Susan Stoen) To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com, sastoen@lamar.ColoState.EDU Subject: Re: bra FAQ Babs-- I would love to help you with this, but there is one problem. I've always been fitted by a professional. Actually, I haven't been fit in about 8 years but I always try EVERY bra I buy on. There are two things I look for 1)fit and 2)comfort. I don't look at 2) until 1) is satisfied. Fit. Well, let's see. I feel a bra fits if my breast tissue doesn't bulge out the tops, sides or bottom of a bra (the cup, I mean). Also, I find that the bras that fit me are neither snug or loose, but just right. I usually check this by feel. If it feels tight I move the band out one set of eyelets, or if I can't then I try the next chest size up (ie 32" to 34"). If the cups are sagging, then I try on a smaller cup size. If they bulge I try on a larger cup size. I've noticed a diference in fit from one bra of the same brand and size to another bra of the same brand and size. So, I try every one I buy on. Comfort. If a bra fits beautifully but makes me feel uncomfortable in the store, then I don't buy it. If it isn't comfortable there then it certainly will not be comfortable when I get home. Right now, I seem to be hooked on Lilleyete minimizers--only ONE model though. The other models don't fit well. It is model 0410 that I really like. I can try on every single 34D in the store and then I'll try this model on and it winds up in my shopping basket even if there were other models that fit well. All I can say is this. Some fit and some don't. Always try to try the model on before you buy it ( I mean, always attempt to...). If you don't know if it fits, then ask for help. Best of luck with this intractable project! --Sue Stoen ============================== On the other side of getting bras to fit correctly is the issue of smaller sizes, to wit: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 09:16:25 -0400 From: denisegalejs@ll.mit.edu (Denise Maurais-Galejs) To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Subject: Lingerie FAQs Hi... I've been reading and enjoying the foundations discussions on the net! I also admire the work that you're putting into organizing one or two FAQs on the subject. I'd post this, but there's something wrong with my account set-up and I can't post. I looked to see if anybody wanted to voice an opinion about the opposite extreme problem that women can have with lingerie, but I'm kind of afraid to get flamed. Anyway, here it goes.... Maybe some research can be done for women who are very flat chested. I know that the prevailing opinion is that small-busted women get to wear the pretty lingerie. Not true! It's designed for B cup and larger. I've tried the A cups, and they're **way** too big. Nobody does anything for AA or smaller. Now, mind you, this is not a huge complaint or problem. It just might be nice to have access to a padded push-up that pushes up what little we have, and adequately fills in underneath. This would produce a more rounded look. I've tried every style that Victoria's Secret makes. They don't really work, and other women that I know have shared the opinion. I read an article in Threads on the subject of fitting the bust area and altering for fit. It extensively provided help for large-busted women, but I was kind of disappointed that the help for fitting small- busted women was condensed into one line that can be paraphrased as "use padding". Padded brassiers that look normal are not easy to find. Anyway, maybe something like this can be included in a FAQ somewhere (?). Thanks. Keep up the good work! Denise ========================== [I posted the following question, with an eye not only to clothing in general, but to lingerie sizing:] From: kmdavis@netcom.com (Karen M. Davis) Organization: NETCOM On-line services Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 15:06:42 GMT Subject: Re: Plus size standard cup sizes? On 11 Aug 1994 23:10:29 -0400, babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com (Babs Woods) said: > It occurs to me to ask if anyone has any knowledge on some of > the basic design assumptions made in designing both RTW clothes (and > the patterns for them), and patterns in "Plus" sizes for the home > market. Most RTW and home patterns for the more usual sizes assume > a B-cup, what do the larger-size designers assume for their standard > cup size? They must have some standard for that. [...] > PS. While I'm at it, let's hear more from those people who know of > mailorder places to get them, especially for lingerie (for the FAQ, > but also in general); and what those of you who have handled them > have experienced and learned about using the patterns for larger > sizes both in Men's and Women's clothes. Is there much out there > for larger petite women, for example? You have to check each pattern company, and sometimes each pattern. The big 4 seem to use B-cup for all patterns except those explicitly marked half-size (C-cup) or Women's (D-cup)... Great Fits uses D-cup/DD-cup, and are the *best-fitting* large size patterns I've found - they also go up to a 70" hip on their entire line, and have a lingerie pattern that includes slip/camisole/half- slip/undies.... Most of their line is designed so that few adjustments have to be made for petites (no defined waists...), and all patterns include numerous options and jumping off points... Their patterns are not really for beginners (with a few exceptions) but you can make some *nice* things from them... karen -- kmdavis@netcom.com (if urgent, use faigin@aero.org - the better half) Karen Davis of Davis and Associates (818)892-8555 "Pain is Mother Nature's way of telling us to slow down; Death is her way of INSISTING!" =========================== From: coeli@aol.com (Coeli) Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Date: 1 Jul 1994 07:34:02 -0400 Subject: Dsigning bras Have you noticed the many articles about bras in the papers and magazines lately? Women are wearing bras again. Doctors are insisting because they feel it is better for health. Gynocologists are telling our daughters to wear underwire bras, though they are not large. A costume designer told me that she had no idea that a large side panel was important to the fit of the bra and for the look of the clothes. Since she is an architect by training, I am urging her to design the better bra. Are any of you designing the better bra? Mimi ============ ========================== From: cperkins@calvin.stemnet.nf.ca (Cheryl L Perkins) Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland Date: 6 Jul 1994 18:25:05 GMT Subject: Designing bras I look at comfort, not at medical necessity. I need good support, but I hate underwires. I don't believe that it is medically necessary for all women to wear bras, especially since bras are a relatively recent invention. ============ From: cat@system9.unisys.com (Cat Okita) Organization: Unisys GIS (Toronto) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 15:58:41 GMT Subject: Re: another bra pattern query In article amarclar@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Amanda R. Clark) writes: >braless to being poked by the wires. What benifit am I supposed >to be reaping from the darned things? The benefit isn't to *YOU* - it's supposed to be something that *men* enjoy - you know - seeing a chest that looks like it has twin rockets sticking out of it...something to do with marilyn monroe and madonna, I think... cheers! cat ============ From: am019@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jennifer Sullivan) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:08:39 GMT Subject: Re: another bra pattern query In a previous article, cat@system9.unisys.com (Cat Okita) says: >In article amarclar@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Amanda R. Clark) writes: >>braless to being poked by the wires. What benifit am I supposed >>to be reaping from the darned things? > >The benefit isn't to *YOU* - it's supposed to be something >that *men* enjoy - you know - seeing a chest that looks like >it has twin rockets sticking out of it...something to do with >marilyn monroe and madonna, I think... > >cheers! >cat > As a 34D who HAS to wear underwires, I find that comment just a tad obnoxious. I may be big busted but I do NOT look like I have twin rockets sticking out of my chest--WHEN I wear an underwire. The lack of support in a soft-cup bra, on the other hand, does in fact make me look like I've got rockets sticking out of my chest, because soft-cup bras tend to be constructed on the 'cone-shaped breast' principle in large sizes, in an effort (a laughable one) to provide support. I'm sorry, but my breasts are NOT, unlike notable softcup bra styles (Playtex Cross-your-heart, etc.) POINTY! They are ROUND, and thanks to underwire construction which allows you to use completely stretch fabric without losing the structure of the bra, they look like it. -- JJ and Woody (TB from Heck!) @ jjsulliv@host0.colby.edu Unicorns don't exist, and roses have thorns. "Never tell me the odds!" --Han Solo ============================ The Lingerie Market and Getting Feedback to the Lingerie Industry To: babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com Subject: Victoria's Secret Date: Tue, 26 Jul 94 13:23:46 -0400 From: "Clare Smith Long" Hi Babs! I just posted to alt.sewing about my brother Dan who works for VSC and wants the bra comments. If you think about it, it makes sense... a computer guy collecting market research off the Internet from real people and passing it on to the product development folks who probably spend thousands on market research, BUT, they probably only hire market research firms who tell them what they want to hear! Anyway, if you've got the whole group of comments in a file, could you send it to me? I've probably got about half the comments. I think we're on a mission! Clare Long clong@umi.com ========================== Oct. 15, 1994 I went bra shopping today in the newly reopened Natick (Mass.) Mall. It was the usual fruitless search, but I went into Lane Bryant and Victoria's Secret and from memory, I found out: The woman in Lane Bryant I spoke with also has some trouble finding her bra size and was actually pretty interested when we had discovered that I needed a size they don't carry (at least not in the store) and I said I'm in charge of this FAQ. She wears a D-cup, and while I don't know (she didn't say) what chest size, she's fairly slim so it's probably a narrow enough frame size as to make for a challenge to find the right size. She said she has found that Victoria's Secret cups run smaller than Lane Bryant's cup sizes FOR HER, so she suggested I keep looking. She also, when we were discussing proper fit, said that the center front of the bra should lie flat when its worn. This is a subtlety to me of proper fit that some people probably haven't heard before. She also pointed out that the support in the bra should come from below, from a properly snug chestband and properly supportive lower cup, so that most of the weight is not being supported by the straps and they don't dig into your shoulders. (My bras never give enough support, so the straps dig into my shoulders pretty deeply.) [A note about softcup bras and larger sizes: I started out with my very first several bras in the 70s being only the cheap cotton sheeting softcups that were the only thing I could get then, and hoisting them up pretty tight and high, by shortening the straps, in order to get any useful support out of them. This also meant not only the wrong cup size but without underwires, no other support from below. It also meant the wrong frame size, as well as deep gouges in my shoulders which are possibly permanent. It is really important to find the right size, and if you have daughters especially fitting them correctly, to ensure proper fit and support and avoid this lifelong problem. What all this means is that it can very hard to find the right size and I cannot stress how important it is to get size right. Keep looking.] When I went to VS I couldn't find my size either, but I did find the next chest size up in the smaller cup size I need and got a rough fit from that. I now know what I actually may need off the rack. Unfortunately, it's even harder to find than what I've been looking for, as one side is a cup size bigger and they're already pretty big for the frame size. This is what makes it so hard to find a good fit off the rack. The people at VS weren't too great about helping me, since this is such a hard size to fit, and the younger woman who was helping me originally to find which display to start out looking through was small-busted and may have had some trouble relating to my problem, but simply seemed less well-versed in the nitty-gritty of bras and their construction than the woman at Lane Bryant had. The older one, not by much, but probably a more managerial level had more of a clue of how to measure for bras and how they're designed, but not nearly as much as the woman at Lane Bryant. It was a bit busier at VS than LB so this "older" woman got called away by others after I had made my main schpiel about how not only is this a hard problem and I try to solve it by sewing my own, but I do still look in stores (kissing the hot stove, I know), AND I am in charge of this FAQ. I did explain "FAQ", and that it was on the internet and a bunch of sewers make this group up, but at both stores the VS managerial type and the LB woman each asked "who do you work for?". In terms of what the customer is expected to know about this product type, I appear somewhat as an insider to them, *especially* at VS. We should all go into stores with this kind of knowledge and I suspect it will get back to the garment industry that people are aware of what they want and need and know how to articulate it in terms that let them know we know our way around. At LB I was able to easily get it across that I represent a bunch of sewers who also want to have properly fitting bras, so part of my thrust is to get back into the garment industry what people really want and maybe have it show up on the rack some day. She was impressed, supportive, and really interested, all of which was pretty gratifying. She didn't have anything that fit me, but she did listen to and was interested in the process of our getting the industry to provide us what we need in the stores. She'd be selling them, and wearing them, too. On the subject of making such changes in the industry, the LB woman and I talked about the kinds of sizing and shape we both find and have found on the racks and how it doesn't meet our needs, but she made the point that a lot of women will dash into a store and buy whatever looks nice and might be in their size. They then, on finding it doesn't fit them well, *think it's them*. We agreed it isn't them, it's the decision they made to not find out if the given bra was right for them before they took it home. [They weren't taking the time to fit them on before buying them.] I pointed out that we already have enough trouble with body image (she agreed), we don't need to do this with our foundation garments and end up feeling worse about our bodies, with which she also agrees. She then made the comment, and I quote: "Those women are the enemy," by which she went on to explain she means that the women who don't pay attention to the way the garments fit contribute to a market where the manufacturers can be lax about their designs and sizes because no one is telling them they object to what they find in the stores. I think she makes a very good point, and in fact refines one of my main points about fit and fashion in bras, which is that she adds the element of those women who don't care enough about what they buy (just wanting to buy it fast and be on their way, as she said) and leave those of us for whom it *is* important stuck with the current state of affairs. I say we change it. She also said that Victoria's Secret owns Lane Bryant, and that Maidenform makes all of Lane Bryant's bras, which I had not known. She also said it's the parent company of some others, I had mentioned that I'm in the process of putting together the comparison chart that includes LB and others and that a lot of that has come so far from the Bali Outlet catalogue (which chart, see above), and I think she said that VS is the parent company for all of them in that listing (which if true makes sense). I assume, therefore, that all of them are OEMs for Maidenform, but I didn't ask about it. (It was a busy day.) ========================== [Oct. 30, 2001 I just found the following, I'm not sure what year it was posted on: http://www.runnersworld.com/apparel/ask/archive.html July 3: Between bras Question: How do I know if I need a sports bra that encapsulates or compresses? What's the difference? Also, who produced the first sports bra? N.J.R. Kankakee, Ill. Answer: Tests have shown that encapsulation bras offer more support than compression bras for well-endowed women. If you're a C-cup or larger, I recommend the encapsulation type bra. What's the difference? Encapsulation bras isolate each breast in a distinct cup, and compression bras hold your breast against your chest. Coverage is typically greater in encapsulation bras, and straps and clasps of all sorts help to keep the breast in place. Would you believe, two women runners actually created the first sports bra in 1977 by sewing together two jockstraps. They simply wanted to design a bra that would provide more support than existing bras. In just two decades, the sports bra has come a long way.] ================================== A friend of mine forwarded this to me: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/26/fashion/thursdaystyles/26CRITIC.html Confidential to You: Your Bra Does Not Fit By ALEX KUCZYNSKI New York Times | 26-Jan-2006 I ONCE sat next to a personal shopper at a wedding. He shopped for wealthy women, taking them around to designer showrooms in New York, Milan and Paris. His adventures sounded like something out of an Edith Wharton novel in which the heiress travels by ocean liner to Paris to buy hats for her trousseau. Except that these women do it every year, or twice a year, spending $100,000 a year or even a season on their wardrobes. What's the first place you take a new client? I asked. Oscar? Carolina? "The Town Shop of course," he said. "You have no idea how many women are wearing the wrong size bra." I had heard of the Town Shop, the famous undergarment emporium on the Upper West Side owned by the same family since 1888. The saleswomen, my informants said, come at you with a tape measure and gimlet eye as soon as you step through the door. Surely I had no need for a professional bra fitting. My breasts were as reliable as Old Faithful, waxing and waning through their various cyclical changes with the on-time efficiency of European trains. They were not too big or too small. They liked their homey 36B bly 85 percent of women, she said, are wearing the wrong bra size. The show's makeovers were incredible: droopy breasts were transformed into buoyant ones; torsos rippling with back fat became silhouettes as sleek as porpoises. I vowed to venture to the Town Shop. My mother joined me. She has been in town waiting for my sister to deliver a baby; my sister's breasts are now so large she needs a shopping cart to leave the house, so she was not a likely candidate for the expedition. My mother is an august and elegant woman with whom I have been bra-swapping for years, but a riffle through her lingerie drawers would reveal that she has brassieres (all 36B too) and slips from the 1950's, which is now -- you can say it, Mom -- more than half a century ago. At least I throw things away once in a while. There is no browsing in the Town Shop; once you're through the door, a saleswoman takes you under her wing. I told Eyvette, who has worked at the Town Shop for 35 years, that I needed a new bra and that I never wantined, happens when a bra is too loose, not when it is too tight, as is commonly believed. If the bra is too loose, the band rides up in the back and makes your back look fleshy. If the bra is the correct size, it anchors the breasts from a position farther down the back, where there is no -- or less -- fat. Straps should not dig into your shoulders, nor slip off. Most of the bra's support should come from the band and the cups. The band should be tight enough to keep the bra level all the way around the front and the back. Eyvette delivered several bras to the dressing room and showed me how to put one on properly: You bend at the waist and shake gently before fastening the bra. (If any 11-year-old boys are reading this, please stop now.) The act of bending over and robustly jiggling allows the volume of the breasts to fully fill the cups of the bra before they are fastened in. I stood up and stared in the mirror. Some strange buxom woman had walked into my dressing room. "That looks good," Eyvette murmued, adjusting the sides, tugging at the back and pulling gently at the front. I had chosen an Aubade lace demi-cup, $78, in deep blue with a little lace butterfly at the front. In a 34D. My mother appeared in a black lace snap-front bra in 34C. (The back of the Town Shop is thankfully off limits to men, because women in various states of toplessness run from dressing room to dressing room.) Mom bought two lace Wacoal snap-front bras for $48 each; I bought the Aubade and a Natori for $46. The store also stocks all those goodies I seem to use all the time though no one else does: real knee socks that actually go up to the knee; half slips, which I always wear with skirts; satin eye masks for sleeping. We left the store having hugged Eyvette and made many promises to return with my sister, once she returns to normal. Town Shop 2273 Broadway (near 82nd Street), Manhattan; (212) 787-2762 SERVICE Any retailer who wants to understand the art of customer service must visit this store for an education. ATMOSPHRE Cluttered and homey. KEY ITEMS Any kind of women's undergarment, from half slips to brassieres in size JJ. PRICES Slightly higher than department stores and worth it because of the service. ================================== This is what I have so far. Again, I welcome people's additions and comments. Email me at: babs@funhouse.com Happy sewing! -babs woods